Skincare with Friends Ep 69: How to Deal with The Ordinary’s Skincare Conflicts and Put Together Your Skincare Routine

For part 2 of conflicts we are going to talk about all the other skincare products that Deciem/The Ordinary say we can’t use together. I’ve created a The Ordinary mixing chart/conflict guide to help you get your heads around all these rules so now you’ll have a one glance reference guide to help you put your routines together. Then we’re going to have a look at which products you really shouldn’t put together and how to organise your routine so you can get all those peptides, acids and retinoids in.

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How to Find The Ordinary Skincare Conflicts

To check out the full list look to the regimen guide on Deciem, it’s a little tricky to find. You go to The Ordinary section of the Deciem site, click on Guides, then Regimen Guides, then Formulations by Category and there you will find a list of the conflicts.

What are The Ordinary Conflicts

The Ordinary conflicts go like this according to Deciem–

Peptides

• Copper Peptides- Direct Acids (Glycolic, Mandelic, Azelaic, Salicylic, Lactic), pure Vitamin C (LAA/ELAA), Resveratrol 3% + Ferulic Acid 3%. 

• The other peptides- Direct Acids (Glycolic, Mandelic, Azelaic, Salicylic, Lactic), pure Vitamin C (LAA/ELAA), Resveratrol 3% + Ferulic Acid 3%

Antioxidants

• EUK-134- Copper Peptides, Direct Acids, Pure/Ethylated Vitamin C, Resveratrol & Ferulic Acid

• Resveratrol + Ferulic- Copper Peptides, Peptides, EUK134 0.1%

• Pycnogenol- Copper peptides

You’ll note that EUK-134 or Pycnogenol doesn’t appear in the Copper Peptide conflict list on Deciem’s very own conflict list on their actual website. Confusion is real and alive in my brain.

Direct Acids (Glycolic, Mandelic, Azelaic, Salicylic, Lactic)

• All the same- Copper Peptides, EUK134 0.1%, Peptides, 100% Niacinamide Powder, Alternate use with other Direct Acids, Pure/Ethylated Vitamin C, Retinoids

Retinoids

• All the same- Copper Peptides, Alternate use with Direct Acids, Pure/Ethylated Vitamin C, Retinoids

Vitamin C

• Pure Ascorbic Acid Powder, 23% Vitamin C, 30% Vitamin C, Ethylated Ascorbic Acid 15%, Ascorbic Acid 8% + Alpha Arbutin 2%- Copper Peptides, Peptides, EUK134 0.1%, Niacinamide, Alternate use with Direct Acids, other Pure/Ethylated Vitamin C, and Retinoids
• The Derivatives- Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate 20%, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate 10%, Ascorbyl Glucoside 12%- Niacinamide

Other Molecules

• Niacinamide 10%+Zinc- Vitamin C (LAA/ELAA/Derivatives)
• Niacinamide Powder- Vitamin C (LAA/ELAA/Derivatives), Direct Acids
• Alpha Arbutin 2%, Caffeine 5% +EGCG, Hydrators and Oils, Cleanser- No conflicts 

Here is the Skincare with Friends handy graphic of The Ordinary conflicts as of late 2021, save it and share freely-

To sum that lot up, the main issues that I can see are- 

• EUK-134 doesn’t go well with acidic stuff. I think that low pH would damage the EUK-134 molecule and stop it from working. There aren’t any sources for this, I’m just going on the limited information I can find.
• Peptides could be damaged by acidic chemicals like the direct acids and pure Vitamin C. Low pH could cause hydrolysis and deamination, which means that the delicate bonds in the peptide molecule would break and the peptide wouldn’t work.
• Copper peptides is easily damaged and shouldn’t be used at the same time as acids or strong antioxidants. The acids because they might hydrolyse or de-aminate the peptides and the strong antioxidants because the antioxidant could react with the copper ions and prevent the peptide from working
• Niacinamide and Vitamin C might have the chemical reactions which we discussed in the last podcast, read our post to find out about the science around Niacinamide and Vitamin C
• The combination of strong acids, Retinoids and Vitamin C causes irritation. Which I wholeheartedly agree is a problem
• They also have a concern that Copper Peptides plus Retinoids will cause irritation

I can only take Deciem’s recommendations so seriously because there is quite a lot of contradiction between what they advise on social media and their website. I’ve seen people ask “but I’ve been using peptides and acids together for ages and I’ve been fine” and they answer “if you have been using them together without issue, you may continue to do so if desired.” (direct quote)

This is what Brandon Truaxe has to say about some of The Ordinary conflicts-

These questions and answers come from the Q+A that the founder of The Ordinary did in 2017. All his answers are still available on the Deciem Chatroom on Facebook for you to read.

I’ve read that when applying retinol you should wait for 20 minutes before applying anything further, is this true?

No study has evaluated the this application suggestion around retinoids in depth to make it a solid one. Retinoids can be sensitive but it’s very unlikely that formulations can interact so negatively in the same regimen that you would have to wait 20 minutes. And any potential interaction would also depend on the type of retinoid. My suggestion is that you wait a couple of minutes at most but also avoid any ingredient that may cause too much sensitivity at the same time (which is a separate issue).

Also how if using retinol how and when would you incorporate Vitamin C?

Vitamin C in pure form could be irritating when used with retinoids because it’s a strong acid. There is also some potential for interaction. However, with non pure form of Vitamin C, there is much less of an issue. My suggestion would be: a) if you are using pure LAA, then alternate between AM and PM with retinoids. b) if you plan to use them at the same time, I would suggest that you try either Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (before or after retinoids) or Ethyl Ascorbic Acid (found in Hylamide C25 and NIOD ELAN) which can be used ideally before retinoids.

I have the vitamin c 23%, do I need the EUK and/or the resveratrol? How would I incorporate them into a routine?  And how would I incorporate retinoid 2% as well?

While Vitamin C is also an antioxidant like EUK 134, it is not JUST an antioxidant. Vitamin C does other things (it can help brighten, it can improve collagen levels) but it is not as strong of an antioxidant as EUK and it cannot convert back to itself once it binds to oxygen radicals. What I would suggest in this case is: AM: Vitamin C and Ferulic (which can be mixed or applied separately with Ferulic first; PM: EUK 134 and Granactive Retinoid 2%.

Can you layer AHAs and retinols/retinoids? E.g. Using 5% AHA and 2% retinoids at night.

From a chemistry perspective, you could use the AHA formulas and retinoids at the same time, but I would suggest not to because they can just cause unnecessary irritation and peeling that won’t really result in better results. If you want to use both, I would suggest a milder AHA like Glycolic 7% and Granactive Retinoid.

How to get Around the Conflicts and Create a The Ordinary Skincare Routine

1. Alternating– Deciem’s recommendation is that you alternate the skincare- Vitamin C in the morning, retinoids in the evening, acids on another evening, copper peptides somewhere else. This creates a skincare routine that you have to have a printed out table to refer to or you forget what you did the night before. This might be a bit extra. But if your are dead set on using vitamin C, retinoids, copper peptides and exfoliating acids into your routine you’re going to have to do some mental gymnastics. It would have to be a peptide morning, retinoid evening, Vitamin C morning and exfoliation evening. With all that going on, it’s going to be difficult to figure out what is working or not working for you.
2. 3 skincare routines– This is sort of what I do. I cleanse straight after putting the kids to bed at 8, hydrate, peptide serums etc, then a bedtime routine at 11pm where I do the Tretinoin. You could do an acid exfoliation at 7 or 8 pm then peptides at 10.30 for example. That way you have a 2 to 3 hour buffer between contradictory ingredients. This suits me because I don’t have a social life, but it might not suit everyone’s schedule.
3. Ignore them- If you are a bit more experienced and familiar with the products and you know how your skin will react to the things you’re using you could just use your best judgement and not worry too much about the conflicts.
4. Give up on trying to get it all in– Like our young Natalie says, she doesn’t even try with Copper Peptides because it’s too tricky. You could instead of using acid exfoliation concentrate on hydration and retinoids, both of which help with skin turnover. I don’t go there with the Pure Vitamin C because it causes acne and I stick to other more easy going antioxidants.

Which The Ordinary Conflict can we Ignore?

There are certain conflicts that I’m not too worried about, but I’ve been using The Ordinary for years and I know what I’m doing. By the letter of the law I have to tell you to follow Deciem’s rules, but this is what I think anyway-

• I don’t worry about the conflicts with Azelaic Acid because it has the same pH as skin so is much less likely to cause irritation and damage to peptides as the pH isn’t really any lower than the skin it’s being applied to
• I’ve never had any irritation when applying retinoids and copper peptides, I don’t know how common a reaction to the pairing is but I’ve not heard anyone mention that
• We had a good look at the science referring to Pure Vitamin C and Niacinamide so I feel confident that we don’t need to worry too much about that. Certainly the derivatives are fine
• For combinations that may cause irritation like direct acids, Vitamin C and Retinoids you can cautiously try and put them together. There is decent scientific evidence to show that these three ingredients work well for aging. But you have to watch your skin closely for barrier damage. Any itching, stinging, soreness, tightness or redness and draw back immediately and stick to hydration for a while. Be very very careful with the stronger acids- the AHA peel and Glycolic Toner, these have caused many people big problems, even chemical burns in some cases.

Mixing The Ordinary Skincare- the Take Home

When using any skincare routine, cease immediately if you get any sort of reaction to a product. If you’re brand new and unsure, stick to The Ordinary’s advice, Deciem has a regimen builder that will give you a routine based on your skin issues. 

It’s best to keep your skincare routine as simple as possible. That way you can easily tell what is working for you and if you are getting a reaction, it’s easier to figure out what did it. The Ordinary is affordable which makes it tempting to try so many different things plus the free delivery for orders over £25 encourages you to add a couple more things to the cart. Try and keep your focus on your aims, do some planning before you order and keep things simple.