Skincare with Friends Ep 68- Conflicts Part 1, Can We Use Niacinamide and Vitamin C or it’s Derivatives at the Same Time?

The next port of call for Skincare with Friends on our journey to coming to a real understanding of skincare science is “conflicts”. This is going to be more than one part yet again. Today we are going to concentrate on whether we can or should use Niacinamide and Vitamins C together.

I think conflicts are an invention by Deciem to make their product range sound more complicated so people find them more magical and enigmatic. I don’t know of any other brand that is dogmatic as this about which products should be used together. There must be a reason they are so insistent about these guidances as if your skin depends on you following them to the letter. Or maybe Deciem are absolutely on the money with their recommendations and everyone else is too devil may care. Deciem even call them contraindications on their Instagram, which is a medical term that means any specific condition in which a treatment would cause harm. I think Deciem is overblowing these conflicts somewhat. I’ve looked through studies and trawled Deciem’s “Ask Me Anything”s on Reddit, their Instagram replies and posts to find out as much as I can about the skincare ingredient conflicts.

There are quite a few conflicts- Niacinamide and Vitamin C and the Vit C Derivatives, EUK-134 and peptides, acids and resveratrol, peptides and acids, copper peptides and nearly everything. So, there’s plenty to talk about.

Let me start with the one that gets on my nerves the most-

Niacinamide and Vitamin C and the Vitamin C derivatives–

“We do not recommend combining Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid, Ethylated L-Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C Derivatives) with Niacinamide as Niacinamide has the potential to affect the integrity of Vitamin C. When combined, this may cause a chemical discolouration of the product and increase the chances of developing facial flushing. If you wish to combine both products into a regimen, we recommend using them on alternate days and/or nights.”

Deciem’s Instagram

The concerns that Deciem have are two fold-

1. That Niacinamide will hydrolyse and turn into Niacin which causes flushing and
2. That Niacinamide and Vitamin C will react and turn into Niacinamide Ascorbate on the skin. 

Lets dig in!

Can Niacinamide and Vitamin C cause Hydrolysis and Cause Formation of Niacin? And Is This a Big Problem?

Niacinamide is great for skin. Its good as an antioxidant, an antiinflammatory, anti pigmentation. It’s is a highly stable ingredient; light and air don’t degrade niacinamide in the same way they oxidise vitamin C. Niacinamide meeds to be a neutral pH in a skincare formula and as we have discussed at length recently, vitamin C should be at a really low acidic pH. This is where all the controversy re Niacinamide and Ascorbic Acid conflicting begins. At high or low pHs Niacinamide hydrolyses to Niacin.

There was a study in 1962 by Finholt and Higuchi on the rate of hydrolysis of Niacinamide that indicated that niacinamide might break down in low pHs. Here are a few excerpts. It starts by saying- 

“Niacinamide is one of the most stable of the vitamins in common use. It has been reported that a 10% niacinamide solution in water may be autoclaved at 120′ for 21 minutes without any degradation occurring.” 

Meaning that Niacinamide can be heated up to more that boiling point for a period of time and not degrade, it is a very stable substance. Obviously at no point during your skincare routine will the Niacinamide be brought to temperatures greater than 100 degrees centigrade.

“The rate of the hydrolysis has a minimum at pH 4.5-6. In this region, the half-life of niacinamide was about I000 days at 89.4”. 

Finholt & Higuchi, 1962.

I read the study and they had to heat up the Niacinamide solution to 90 degrees celsius for 100 days to get it to degrade even at very low pHs. Which is very much not what is happening on the surface of human skin. Another study by Woolish found Niacinamide to be stable at low pHs “Only after 6 weeks at 45′ C. and at a pH below 5.0 did the niacinamide show any mensurable sign of hydrolysis, not exceeding 2 per cent.” Again even at extreme temperatures for long periods of time Niacinamide stayed stable.

The other question we need to answer is whether this hydrolysis of niacinamide is even a bad thing– 

“Some studies claim that niacinamide and nicotinic acid are readily converted into each other in vivo while other studies speculate that niacinamide and nicotinic acid may have very different pharmaceutical activities despite having identical vitamin activities. In other words, nicotinic acid may have more benefits than topical niacinamide on the skin due to the fact that in addition to having the vitamin effects on skin (increasing levels of niacinamide adenosine dinucleotide [NAD]), it may also have drug-mediated effects on skin via interacting with nicotinic acid receptors present in the skin. Yet, the disadvantage of using nicotinic acid as a topical cosmeceutical is its unpleasant side effect of vasodilation that results in skin flushing. This is an effect that is not harmful but intensely disliked by most patients. In contrast to nicotinic acid, niacinamide does not cause skin flushing”  

Levin & Momin, 2010

So even if Niacinamide does break down to Nicotinic acid AKA Niacin, it will still produce skin benefits but it might cause some reddening of the skin.

How big of a problem is Niacin flushing? According to this study by Mckay et al 2012 “Most reported adverse reactions to NA have occurred with intakes of 2–6 g/day.” So generally when reactions to Niacin are talked about in studies, they at very high oral doses (Niacin is a treatment for high cholesterol), not at the tiny amounts that might be in skincare. 

Do Niacinamide and Vitamin C React and Turn into Niacinamide Ascorbyl on the Skin, and Is That Really Bad?

There is also the risk that when mixed together at a low pH niacinamide plus ascorbic acid can form a yellow substance called Niacinamide Ascorbate. Niacinamide Ascorbate is formed when Niacinamide and Vitamin C are stored together and the pH is from 2-6, the creation of this molecule is easily reversed when the pH falls or rises. 

This is something that happens when Nia and Vit C are in solution together for a period of time, so a different situation to the normal skincare routine. The deep layers of skin have a pH of 7 so in theory once the product absorbs, the molecule will have dissociated.

Also Niacinamide Ascorbate has some skin benefits anyway. There was a study by Ionescu et al done in 2009 on 39 participants that showed that “In normal human skin explants treated by the association niacinamide-ascorbic acid then submitted to Simulated Solar Radiation, melanocyte dendricity was decreased and the melanin transfer was absent.” So the combination of the two ingredients reduced melanin production under sunlight. 

If Niacinamide is Such a Great Ingredient Why Do People React to it?

I did a poll on Instagram and 14 out of 138 people said they had flushing from Niacinamide, which was higher than I expected. Niacinamide isn’t known to be irritating, it’s not acidic. I think people might be reacting to something else in the formula they’re using, which is probably the Zinc in The Ordinary Niacinamide serum. One listener (Annoushka) said “For a year and a half I was convinced I was sensitive to caprylic compounds. Then I ran out of niacinamide before my refill arrived and boom! Peace was restored. Took some months to heal the inflammation and now my face is much happier. Smaller %ages are ok in formulations”

This isn’t what flushing is though, flushing is a temporary redness and tingling that goes in  about 30 minutes. I think people are getting that reaction to The Ordinary Niacinamide 10% plus Zinc that lots of people have posted about before, which is irritation and bumps/pimples. 

It is theoreticized that niacinamide may improve the texture of skin by speeding up epidermal turnover hence functioning as a mild exfoliant (Levin + Momin, 2010). So this increase in cell turnover could well be irritating to some, especially in higher concentrations.

What Do The Expects Have to Say?

This is what Paula Begoun has to say- “It’s important to point out that this concern applies only to pure vitamin C, not to its many other forms (such as magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate, and ascorbyl glucoside). So, to reiterate, combining ascorbic or l-ascorbic acid with niacinamide is fine. In short, any studies that show a definite issue from combining niacinamide and vitamin C were conducted in an environment that does not reflect what average skin care products experience during development, manufacturing, or in real-world storage and usage.” (Paula Begoun)

And Stephen Alain Ko- “If you do choose to use them together, I don’t think the evidence points to any disabling of their benefits or any skin damage.”

I had a look at Brandon’s (the founder of Deciem and The Ordinary) Q+A which is still available on The Ordinary Chatroom on Facebook to see if he had anything to say. This was done in September 2017 so there may have been research done since then that changed Deciem’s opinion on things.

This question I think applies to the Niacinamide vitamin C conflict-

“What are your thoughts on pH balancing your skin before actives? Is it a necessary step in someone’s routine to use an AHA/BHA toner to ‘lower’ their skin’s pH or to wait 20-30 mins after cleansing to use actives?

It takes more than just basic contact with another formula applied to the skin to adjust the pH of another one so drastically to affect it. Only very susceptible ingredients such as EUK 134 should ideally not be mixed with very acidic systems. I absolutely don’t think it’s essential in most cases to wait so long for pH adjustment.”

Maybe Deciem has some new research on this that they aren’t sharing with us. I’ve asked them as have other people and they ain’t sharing. 

I have no idea why they are saying we can’t use the derivatives with Niacinamide and the derivatives together, not a clue! This is a relatively new conflict, they never used to say this. I know of other brands who formulate derivatives with Niacinamide in the same product, so how bad can this interaction really be?

Eg Facetheory Cera-C toner and Amil Whip Moisturiser

So, CAN We Use Niacinamide and Vitamin C or it’s Derivatives at the Same Time Or Not?

In summary-

• According to Brandon skincare products can’t drastically affect other skincare products when applied to the skin so it’s unlikely that Niacinamide and vitamin C will react with each other in this way
• In theory Niacin could be created in a reaction at low pHs, but these are under totally different conditions to those you create when applying serums
• Vit C and Nia can react to create Niacinamide Ascorbate, but similarly this is unlikely to happen in a real life situation
• Niacin and Niacinamide Ascorbate have skin benefits anyway
• A small percentage of individuals react to Niacin to cause a skin flushing reaction, if you are sensitive, you might wish to be more careful with the way you use Niacinamide
• According to all the information I have read, any risk in using the two together are totally theoretical. It seems like it’s fine to use Niacinamide with Vitamin C in any form. There may be people who are particularly sensitive to the pairing though so if you are using them pay close attention to your skin and stop using if you get any problems.

Shout out to Boardman USA, Dublin Ireland and Saint Nom La Breteche who have our top listenership this week.

References

Finholt P, Higuchi, T  Rate Studies on the Hydrolysis of Niacinamide Research Articles, P655-661, 1962, https://doi.org/10.1002/jps.2600510710

Ionescu M-A., Gougerot A., Matta A-M.,  Lefeuvre L. Melanocytes’ dendricity down-regulated by the association niacinamide–ascorbic acid. (2009). Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, 60(3), AB78. doi:10.1016/j.jaad.2008.11.355 

https://kindofstephen.com/can-you-use-niacinamide-and-vitamin-c-ascorbic/

Levin J., Momin SB. How much do we really know about our favorite cosmeceutical ingredients?. J Clin Aesthet Dermatol. 2010;3(2):22-41. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/

MacKay D., Hathcock J., Guarneri E. Niacin: chemical forms, bioavailability, and health effects, Nutrition Reviews, Volume 70, Issue 6, 1 June 2012, Pages 357–366, https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1753-4887.2012.00479.x

https://www.paulaschoice.com/expert-advice/skincare-advice/skin-care-myths/can-niacinamide-and-vitamin-c-be-used-together.html

Wollish, E. G., Schmall, M., & Shafer, E. G. E. Determination of Small Quantities of Niacin in Presence of Niacinamide. Analytical Chemistry, (1951). 23(5), 768–771. doi:10.1021/ac60053a025